Some assume that one could go into your average Adventist church and get talked about for bringing cheese or meat to the pot-luck. It is assumed that you can go to your average Adventist church and hear people quote Ellen White more than the Bible. It is assumed that the average Adventist church consists of people with a notepad seeking to write down all
the things that you have done wrong. But are these assumptions true?Pot Lucks and Cheese
I find such statements interesting for a couple of reasons...First, I find that the seeker sensitive services do not necessarily end up with a more "loving" expereince. See my post on another blog. But also, I have attended many potlucks and have often seen cheese in them. Sometimes I see meat...But I have never seen anyone castigated for bringing cheese or meat. I have even seen a church related function have unclean meat in it....(but it was something that the pastor was not aware of and attempted to correct) I will acknowledge that my experiences are limited to my own case, I have not visited every church etc...But I can't help but wonder what if the assumed problem is really not the problem?
Legalism or Lawlessness?
What if our basic assumptions are wrong? What if lawlessness is at least as big a problem as legalism in the church today? What if it is not that we use Ellen White too much, but hardly at all? What if instead of "worshipping her" as we are charged with we ignore her?
I doubt you will go to many churches tomorrow and hear Ellen White quoted more than the Bible. In fact you might hear Billy Graham or Martin Luther quoted more than Ellen White. I think it interesting that some think that Ellen White is deified in the church while at the same time we hear her less. Is the prophet disappearing or have I just attended the few churches that seem to downplay her?
What do you think?
Check out this post:
ReplyDeletehttp://oregonadventistpastor.blogspot.com/2005/08/whatever-happened-to-ellen-white.html
Tonight at our youth worship we spent hours dicussing the very same issue. I finally concluded that there isn't a disappearance of the prophet, but a disappearance of God's word. A seventh day adventist, and one that was born into the adventist church it is so much easier for parents and older members to quote a phrase from the prophet, but few can share scriptures from the bible with such clarity. We as seventh day adventist certainly know that SIS EGW was instrumental the establishment of the SDA, and have grown to know her as the lesser light, but as prophet of God she taught from the bible and according to the teachings of God. So therefore as christians we need to look at the greater lighter, and make sure that there isn't the disappearnce of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteDavid,
ReplyDeleteI guess I should have looked on that board before posting this...But since it was bout 6 months ago perhaps I can be forgiven...
God bless and thanks for the link...
"A Seventh-day Adventist Christian",
ReplyDeleteThis is interesting, you seem to be stating that we not only have a Disappearing Prophet, but you find that there is a disappearing Bible. Do you find that among all age groups?
Good questions. Here are some ramdon statements:
ReplyDelete- We wer told by my teachers (in France) to never mention EW from the pulpit.
- Just for fun, when we are talking spiritual stuff with my friends, I ask them "well, now tell me, where do you find that? In the Bible or in EW?" 90% of the times they don't know.
- My personal opinion: if we read EW correctly, we would stop mentioning her, not because she's not a prophet, but because she constantly is pointing at Jesus! When I finish reading, i.e., the chapter on Jesus cricifixion, I don't say "wow, she writes so well." At the contrary, I cry because of my sins and love for Jesus!
Unfortunately, EW's writings are widely used as weapons, rather than as a flash light to guide us to the Light...
Good points, sir! I would agree with you. As a youth chaplain, I have been interested in this very issue. What suprises me is that I have NEVER heard from a teenager today that we use Ellen White too much, or that we deify her, or hold her to high. If anything, they simply do not know anything about her. As I see it, it is our generation (30s-50s) who had Ellen White used as a "weapon" against us occasionally, and now we just assume our kids feel the same way about it. They don't! I have my students read and study from Ellen White to learn what she says, and they all ask the same type of question: "Why didn't you tell us about her before? She helps us to Christ!" I believe we are at fault for swinging the pendulum so far from God's gift of the Spirit of Prophecy that we are in danger of disrespecting it...but I don't see that people WANT to disregard her...we're all afraid of offending someone, but no one's quite sure who!
ReplyDeleteSherman:
ReplyDeleteIt's not a sin to cover the same ground as someone else. :-) I just wanted to let you know about Greg's post and my comment on it.
If I may leave another link...
ReplyDeleteI believe that everyone who is seriously interested in Ellen White Issues should read the July 30 and August 1 minutes of the . In these minutes you see the debate of the inspiration and use of Ellen White forming. I think it's pretty obvious which side won.
I have included my thoughts on the matter on my blog. Hopefully I am not to late to the conversation.
ReplyDeletePerpetualStudent,
ReplyDeleteIt is never to late to comment on one of my posts. I am looking for ways to make my archive more accessible with search boxes and featured posts and such.
At any rate, thanks for the link. I will comment over on your blog...From initially scanning your post it seems you agree with my basic premise that EGW is disappearing and you give an interesting reason for that...
God bless and keep on Commenting!!
[...] The Disappearing Prophet (10)World Adventist Leadership Training for Women (8)Benefits of Reading Ellen White? (8)What is the Core of Adventist Identity? (5)Adventist Blogs that are Updated (4) [...]
ReplyDeleteHi!
ReplyDeleteJust discovered your blog off Technorati. Mind if I join the conversation?
The situation with Ellen White reminds me of a situation I read about in a book called How To Survive In Your Native Land. It's a memoir written by a guy named James Herndon (non-Adventist), who was a public school teacher back in the 1960s.
Herndon teaches a reading class in which the students, well, don't read, and end up getting poor grades. So he sets out to figure out why the students won't. After examining everything, he concludes that students aren't reading because the very act of teaching reading (as it is usually done) is distracting and prevents them from doing so. They hear about reading so much that they either get sick of it and don't want to do it, or start focusing on the wrong things.
"With the tests, the 'methods,' with the class structures," he writes, "with the teacher's determination to teach...no one had ever had much time in school just to read the books...What goes on [in reading class]? Roll taking, admin tasks, demands for order, Speeches from the teacher, motivating the kids to read...assignments, or a few assignments..." The kids eventually get out the reading textbooks and begin to read a story, but then "about the time the kids are looking at the title or reading the first paragraph...out comes a ditto sheet containing the real assignment - questions on the reading. Who had red hair? Why didn't the man stop after he ran over the puppy...all kids immediately stop reading the story because they know that what is important to the teacher is that they answer them questions" - instead of reading the text.
So, to rectify the problem, he tries, as much as possible, to remove all the distractions, all the useless talk about reading and the useless assignments, and instead just present the books, make them available and accessible without trying to jazz them up or talk them up or even tailor them to the kids - he creates an environment in which books are everywhere and the students can just grab them and read them without being bothered. And - much to his delight - once this happens, the students actually start to grab the books off the shelves and read them and enjoy them and learn from them.
Perhaps we in the church talk about Ellen White this and Ellen White too much, to the point where people just get, well, sick of hearing her name, and want it to go away. Either that, or they start focusing on the wrong things about her. If that is the case, we should do what Herndon did not talk so much about Ellen White this and that, but actually just make her books available and accessible with no baggage attached for people to read...I think people will read them then and discover how good she is on their own.
Cheers.
oops, typo correction. The 2nd to last sentence should read "We should do what Herndon did - not talk so much about Ellen white this and that, but actually just make her books available and accessible..." Without the dash it kinda don't make sense.
ReplyDeleteKevan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments and welcome...
I wish to ask you, Do you think that the church talks "Ellen White this and Ellen White That?" Perhaps one can see this in the past, but do you see it today? And also Do you think ignoring her but making her books available will eventually lead to her writings coming back in circulation?...And if that did happen would we not be in danger of people misusing her becuase we have not said anything about her?
Do you think that the church talks Ellen White this and Ellen White That? Perhaps one can see this in the past, but do you see it today?
ReplyDeleteNo, and no. I apologize for not being clear. Shoulda started out by answering the question at the end of your post. I agree with you: Ellen White is disappearing from the church; churches do downplay her...and the few churches (that I've been to) that do make mention of her regularly tend to use her weapon-style.
In my comment, I just wanted to offer an idea as to why that was the case: I think we (meaning church leaders, and ardent church members, I guess) talked and talked about her too much without focusing enough attention on just...reading her works. This made a lot of members sick of hearing her name until they don't want to hear it anymore, much less read one of her books (created what you call "lawlessness," in other words). At the same time, the few people who did start to read her works focused on the wrong thing - and became like those (leaders, ardent church members, Ellen White quoting machines) that talked and talked and talked (created what you call "legalism," in other words).
The issue really isn't a matter of legalism and lawlessness. Both are equally as bad. Moving from the current trend of No Ellen White In Church back to the times of Talking About Ellen White In Church will not accomplish anything - unless you change the style of talking. The issue isn't THAT she is used or not, but HOW she is used.
Do you think ignoring her but making her books available will eventually lead to her writings coming back in circulation?
Guess I wasn't clear on this, too. I am NOT for ignoring her. But I am for changing the way we pay attention to her in church. Instead of talking about her in a Ellen White Says This / Here's A Quote / Read This / You Should Trust Her Because! style, I think we need to be saying Hey, just read this really great book that offered a lot of insight into (stories of the Bible / issues today / what will happen in the future)...you can grab a copy right here...check it out. I think you'll like it.
That's a friendlier, open, more available approach that would entice more people to check out what she wrote. That's what I meant by eliminating all the useless talk and distractions and just making her books available for people to read on their own.
And if that did happen would we not be in danger of people misusing her becuase we have not said anything about her?
No...again, I'm not for ignoring her...just changing the way we talk about her. If you got someone interested in EW, you could then say, "Check it out and let me know what you think." And, as the person reads the book, you (we - I mean - church leaders, strong church members, EW nuts, etc) could check in with them, and answer the questions that they have, and thus make sure they're not misusing her. By doing this, you're putting the people - their needs and learning styles - first, not the act of mentioning Ellen White's name in church first. And I think that'll ultimately lead to more people reading EW and discovering the benefits of doinng so.
Hope that makes more sense. Apologies if it doesn't.
It makes sense. I think that the willingness of many to struggle with the question of Ellen White shows that she has not totally disappeared. Sometimes I think this is the only post that gets comments on my blog.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, I am actually surprised that no one has brought up the fact that at the last session the GC passed a resolution seeking to acknowledge the importance of Ellen White to the church. How do you guys think that fact relates to what we have been discussing in this thread?
I read someof the posts and am confused. I am a Seventh-day adventist, and let me tell you in my church we still use EGW's material and I am glad that we do but we also use the Bible first and far most. What we have done is we take the quotes from EGW's books and find the Scripture or the story or parable in the Bible that it refers to. And let me tell you the Servant of the Lord always points you back to Jesus. We let the world tell us what we should and should not use. Yet they uses quotes from ungodly people to make a point all the time. The world hang on their pastors and let them write a book and it's over. Go on the subway or the buses and all you here is "Did you read such and such book by Reverend....? I don't care what the world or anybody else may say about Sister White, I will continue to use and quote her writing. But I will never put her before Jesus or the written word of God. I do indeed belive that she was an inspired writer of God for our times. It hurts me to see so many of our church dismissing her writings. If we look back into our history at the early church, we would see that we as Adventists are beginnig to put no differences between us and the world. Have you been inside the first day churches and some of our churches there is no difference. They [first day worshipers} go to church with street clothes on, thick makeup, jewelry, women with pants on and men with braids and earrings in their ears and women with bald heads and dressing like men and men with muscles shirts on and women showing their clevage and I can go on and on, but my point is go into our church and tell me what is the difference. What is going on in our Santuaries!!! Its out lined in the Bible as well as Sister White's book. And by all means read Joe Crews book on The Creeping Compromise. We need to listen to the older members and go back to being God's peculiar people and go back to being Adventist. No more compromises to suite the members. NO more bashing the Servant of the Lord. No more listening to the World and their ungodly ideas. But more of Jesus!!!! I hope I have not offended anyone with this post.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I am not an old Adventist I have been in the faith for about seven years.
A concerned Adventist.
Trarr,
ReplyDeleteI am confused as well, I am not sure what posts you are attempting to address. You obviously have passion that might be helpful to our conversation, but I wish that you would explicitly tell us what posts or things you are addressing. If it is not what you have heard on this board then say that it is something you heard outside of the board.
God Bless...
I was reading some of the posts on this board "The Disappearing Prophet". I might have babbled on and on, but my point is we have a prophet for our time, lets not let others take away from that especially ungodly people. We want to be so quick to quote other authors (that are not of the faith), but want to down play the "Servant of the Lord".
ReplyDeleteTrarr,
ReplyDeleteI would agree with the sentiment that some of us find it objectionable to quote Ellen White while some of the same would have no problems quoting others. In my post you will note that I wrote: In fact you might hear Billy Graham or Martin Luther quoted more than Ellen White. I think it interesting that some think that Ellen White is deified in the church while at the same time we hear her less.
However, I wish to ask you, would you call all who disagree with your sentiment "ungodly?" Are you stating that all who are not Adventist are "ungodly?" It appears that way.
No I do not see all who are not of the Adventist faith undodly. TO ALL please accept my apology if it sounds that way. But what I am saying that the world is ungodly. We must not be ashame to pronounce the facts. "You will know them by their fruits". I know before Christ drew me I was definately ungodly. I did almost everything under the sun from children out of wedlock, stole, lied and even commited adultry after I was married. I was mean, my motto was I can do and say whatever I wanted to to anyone despite of their age, race and gender. But I praise God for the quickening power. Ephesians: You had he quickened who was dead in traspasses sin wherein in times pass you walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. I was there, you were there and so was many of us until Jesus came into our lives. Ungodly had no tangible thoughts of God let alone doing his service. Now considering the fact I was indeed a member of a well know Baptist church in Washington DC but my motives were selfish ones, I was an ungodly church member. And lets not be delusional to the fact that there are many setting in the Advent faith was are indeed just like that. Do what I say makes sense without offending?
ReplyDeleteTrarr,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your post...It just seemed as though you had a lot to say and you were going to say a lot even though some of it wasn't really what the original post was about...But one could argue that has already happened...In any case, I hope you will continue to read and post and contribute to our little side of the web...
God Bless...
I'm currently reading the Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1. I continue reading & trying to figure out what the "transformative process" is all about in reading her in the early 21st century. I must explain that after some minor indecision & lots of prayer before, during and after, I decided to read years after the fact, The White Lie. Though intrigued, I was put off by his attitude & one blasphemous comment about the Annanias & Saphira story which lessened the impact of most of what he had to say. Though I continue prayerfully reading the Spirit of Prophecy, I'm always asking, what her sources were as I read each chapter. Each time I open one of EGW's books, I always ask God to enable me to realize if what I'm reading is drawing me closer to Christ or away from him.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that someone felt he didn't see a "disappearing prophet" but a "disappearing of God's word". That's interesting because IMO it's impossible to study Ellen White without going into God's word. She herself continually called herself the "lesser light". From my personal experience, I think this perception comes from the way Ellen White is "used" (or used to be used). It's hard to find quotes in the Bible to address contemporary issues such as entertainment or diet (no coffee in Bible times) ect. Yes you can find the general principles, but not specifics. So some have used Ellen White as a "shortcut" in arguments. But these days I don't see much quoted from Ellen White. And (possibly as a consequence) many of the "standards" aren't being addressed...at all. Nobody bothers, for instance, to delve into what the Bible AND/OR Ellen White teaches about jewlry, so everyone just does what's write in his/her own sight. That's just one example. It's also interesting that sometimes we'll hear every other contemporary Christian author BUT Ellen White quoted. Meanwhile NON Adventist pastors have discovered Ellen White and use bits and pieces of what she says (sometimes without giving her credit) in what they're doing.
ReplyDeleteI am intrigued by the comments thus far.
ReplyDeleteThe prophet has all but disappeared in my community as far as the pulpit is concerned.
I think it has to do with how her writings have been used historically. For example, in the mid to late 1970's my mother tells me about how she had to memorize WHite's writings in BIble class, and was consistently told: Mrs. White says this, Mrs. White says that...
The point is this: her writings have been abused in the past...(as weapons, as someone suggested)...and I think what we are seeing is the pendulum swinging back the other way...overcompensating if you will.
So preachers are fearful of using her because the last thing they want to do is drive people from Christ by using her writings if those writings have connotations from their past in how she was used.
I can understand this...but I think it is tragic that so many of those who have been hurt by people using White as a weapon (or those who know of someone who has been hurt...or who even just perceive that she has been misused) neglect to read any of her writings altogether.
Most people in my congregation really have no idea what she says and stands for (but think they do); and really have very little knowledge of the Bible either for that matter.
I personally preach with Ellen White some...but often times, she brings out entirely differnet illustrations or images or teachings from the passage I am preaching from...and so she simply cannot be used.
What I really hate is when I have members approach me and tell me that I got it wrong because Mrs. White says this or that...this is frustrating because I don't think her word is the last word on every point of the Bible. I believe the teachings of the Bible are so rich that we can study them for eternity and never 'get' it all.
Kris
Adventists (among others) hate Ellen White because they are jealous over the fact that she experienced genuine communion with, and received revelation from God, while they don't. To try and make up for this, some people base every single belief and action of their life on a quote from her, while others continuously attempt to show that they have a more thorough understanding of Scripture and humanity than she did. They are all going into the pit together.
ReplyDelete